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Talk:Canon fan trolls
Well I was kinda thinking that the page(s) for the canon fantroll(s) would be made after they actually appeared in the comic. That being said I'm not going to delete a legitimate page over something like that, besides we would have people back here wondering they he (or they should more come) aren't documented here. Anyhow, should Nectan be the only fan troll to receive the $10000 treatment he can get a whole page to himself, but if more come how should they be handled? All receive their own pages or be listed together on a single page like the Ancestors? I really believe the Ancestors route is the way to go since most of them lack their own pages due to little info. Given that the fan troll(s) may only get a single page appearance (unless the Hussie is merciful and gives them a longer appearance) I really doubt there is much reason for individual pages. The Light6 (talk) 11:15, September 9, 2012 (UTC) Sprites Please see the wiki entry that Jedediah created for more information. I've been working with him over the past few days to create a good bio and sprites; these are the ones we've worked out so far. They might be updated some more in the next few days! I can confirm that the sprites were created by a tumblr user called "whoharassthecalibooty" here - they've not been requested nor vetted by Nectan's creator. ashdenej 15:52, September 9, 2012 (UTC) Armant Erebus It's almost time for ErryK's fantroll - Armant Erebus - to be officially revealed, mm. Are we going with the single-page-for-all-canontrolls idea? ashdenej 08:31, September 13, 2012 (UTC) :I will say that we will for the current time. The Light6 (talk) 08:35, September 13, 2012 (UTC) SympathyPlan Second (third including Armant) troll duly unveiled and sprited by yours truly and Zephyrkit, after much communication with SympathyPlan. I'm a bit irked that somebody felt they could upload sprites without actually getting the creator's input whilst making them, mm. Still, we have the proper sprites now, so I suppose there's no harm done. ashdenej 09:04, September 21, 2012 (UTC) Bit late saying so, but this page concerns me I'm just going to go on record as saying that this page currently consists of actual misinformation, and thus is very much against the purpose of a wiki. Which would theoretically be grounds for tagging it for deletion. One, it assumes the pledges aren't going to fall through. Of particular concern is that the page calls the trolls canonised, literally using that word in their sections, which is simply not true at the current time. We can cover them at such a time as they actually become canon. Which isn't when the Kickstarter ends, by the way, in case anyone was thinking that. It's when they actually appear in Homestuck. Two, the pledges are just that – pledges. Not donations, and as I say, not set in stone. People can pledge whatever they like, it doesn't guarantee them sticking to that come the end and looming actual payment. This is the same reason I removed the names of the pledgers from the Kickstarter article, only rather more severe in this case. I would be inclined to say this page absolutely shouldn't exist until the trolls are actually canonised, because until then, we are basically just advertising two people's non-canon fantrolls. Someone can maintain this page in a sandbox, if they like, while we wait for canonicity. But I don't think it should be an article yet. I also hasten to emphasise that the moment the fantrolls do become canon, the fans who made them lose creative control over anything put on this page. That doesn't mean they can't edit the page; it means they cannot in any way, shape or form embellish the trolls on this page. Any modifications they make will be, as always, restricted to userspace. Whatever happens to the fantrolls in HS, that is what goes on this page. Nothing more or less than that :While you already know (from the IRC and all) for everyone else - the page has been semi-protected until the end of the Kickstarter and hidden the information about the fan trolls. At the end of the Kickstarter we will know which payments for the fan trolls went through or not which will at least confirm that the relevant trolls will appear in some form. The Light6 (talk) 16:00, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :"...And furthermore, even after the payment is actually made, the trolls will not become canon until they actually appear in Homestuck or are otherwise stated by Hussie to be canon" - If and when the Kickstarter ends and they've maintained their donations, Hussie will have declared them canon. Right here: "Your fantroll will become canon and appear in Homestuck." So... there's that? ashdenej 13:00, September 27, 2012 (UTC) ::I am well aware of that statement. However, it doesn't say when they will become canon. Just that they will. And until they do, we are not in a position to make assumptions about the exact nature of their canonicity. That alone is reason to wait. ::To expand on the matter a little further, until they appear, the most we can say is that we have an expectation. Which still proves nothing; Hussie could change his mind. He wouldn't be popular if he did so, and I doubt he will, but he could. The sole point at which we can make a statement of certainty is the point at which it is, in fact, certain Just had a thought and decided to mention it, the Kickstart FAQ says backers have 7 days to ensure their payment to the Kickstarter if problems occur with the initial payment otherwise they are dropped from the project. The kickstarter has now ended over 7 days ago and there is no indication that they have been dropped from the project, unless the Kickstarter numbers freeze when it ends and don't change even if people are dropped from it. Also on the idea of Hussie deciding to not go through with it, not only do I feel it is unlikely for Hussie to do such a thing for reasons of feeling guilty and knowing it would be highly unpopular, there is also the fact depending on legal stuff (depending on jurisdiction and interpretation of law by judges and such) that the $10000 backers can have been thought to have purchased a product and that Hussie backing out would be illegal. Given all that and that Hussie has already acknowledged their canonicity at this point in time they are just unseen and unreferenced characters we know exist because of stuff external to the comic. - The Light6 (talk) 10:12, October 12, 2012 (UTC) :One thing I do still think is an issue is that Hussie will not necessarily depict the fantrolls exactly as they are designed by their creators. Hell, they are only expected to survive one page. They will probably literally appear in the background. Maybe have a chatlog at most. So the article here probably will not warrant infoboxes, and even if it does, the information present in them from the creators is not confirmed canon. The mere presence of the trolls is the only thing about them that will definitely be canonical thing. One could most certainly go so far as to say that they might not even look exactly the same or have the same exact names, but that's certainly something we can give the benefit of the doubt on, as there'd be no reason to change it. Their quirks are only relevant if they do get any dialogue, but should be assumed irrelevant for now. And I rather doubt their constellations will be relevant at all. :TL;DR: The only things that are sufficiently confident that they may be included on the article at the moment are the names and main sprites (not extra sprites like dream selves), not anything else. All other details should stay on the users' pages, not on this article, until we actually see them in Homestuck :::I think we can safely assume that these details will be used. Seing as, you know, he said he would use the trolls, not their appearances. Either way, this is the information we have about them right now, so it goes here like anything else would. Snowskeeper---Till Hell Freezes Over. (talk) 21:54, October 13, 2012 (UTC) ::::We can fairly safely assume the names and appearances, because he has no reason to change those. We cannot safely assume any deeper development of the characters because they are expected to survive only for one page, and as such, are unlikely to be developed. They might get more; for instance, I've noted that chat quirks are reasonably likely, but still not certain. Ultimately, we cannot assume these things, as we should only state or imply as certainties things that are confirmed, which is currently only that they will appear at all ::::::Once again, he said 'he was going to use the trolls. Not just their appearances. Until he states otherwise, we can reasonably assume that, yes, what the makers have said is canon. ::::::: I have to side with SN on this. Saying they'll be made canon is a vague statement which doesn't really say how many of the details will be included. It could be the minimum, it could be more. As such until we actually see what is used and what isn't we should stick with the minimum. - The Light6 (talk) 22:47, October 15, 2012 (UTC) Requesting An Edit ...To something a bit less snippily-worded. The project has been funded and both Jedediah and SympathyPlan can't back out now. Hussie has explicitly stated they'll be included in canon at some point - but that's besides the point. Just edit it to reflect the reality that the Kickstarter is over and their donations are still present, please! ashdenej 19:11, October 4, 2012 (UTC) :Well, no, the Kickstarter isn't over until the PayPal thing finishes which is going to be about a week. And as I've said before, a statement that they "will be" canon contains zero information on ''exactly when they become canon. And that's not something we can know until Hussie explicitly states, "Okay, they are canon as of now", or more simply, they appear in HS :EDIT: Though, yes, certainly the page will need altering very slightly to reflect the completion of the main part of the Kickstarter, as indeed, they ostensibly cannot back out now :Aaand the latest news update on the main page clears it up once and for all. "One last note: it does look like two people took the plunge for the $10,000 tier, and as such their fan trolls will be appear in canon (however fleetingly). Let us now pray for these two intrepid souls." There you have it, folks! They are Officially Canon. Also, the Kickstarter ''is finished, but the donation drive isn't. ashdenej 18:04, October 5, 2012 (UTC) Yep, with that confirmation by him it lifts these trolls from "potential characters" to "currently unseen characters". Considering Damara for example, has a page and has only been shown in one page as a silhouette. She has a page because it's pretty much certain that she will appear. Which is the same with these characters. Rabbeseking (talk) 03:33, October 6, 2012 (UTC) :We have seen Damara only in silhouette, indeed, but a silhouette is still an ''actual appearance. She, and Zahhak and Nitram, have also been directly referred to, as was the case for, to give an example, Dirk and Roxy before we met them. This also suffices to confirm them as having "appeared". But for the case of the fan trolls, they have made absolutely no appearance, physical or referential, to date, and so we cannot make a comparison to the beta trolls. The remaining beta trolls are already canon. My argument on canonicity in potentia is unchanged because the situation is unchanged – "'A statement that they "will be" canon contains zero information on ''exactly when they become canon." :EDIT: Also, I would say that the PayPal drive is being counted as part of the Kickstarter, since the URL for it is http://whatpumpkin.com/kickstarter.html, and also that, well, the print is still called "Kickstarter-exclusive", which isn't true if it can be obtained through something not considered part of the Kickstarter (though I concede that this is more of a technicality). Either way, I expect that we won't be seeing the fantrolls until some time after the whole thing concludes Still pretty silly, but okay. Rabbeseking (talk) 22:33, October 18, 2012 (UTC) :There's nothing silly about treating the issue objectively, which is what I am doing, and have been doing since I first stated my concerns about the page in the above section. The article as it currently stands is the extent of canonical certainty, or at least confidence. This is an immutable fact I have stated for the record so many times, it's not even funny. :Just in case anyone at all isn't sure about my stance here: I have nothing whatsoever against the fan trolls. I actually quite like them; they're great designs. But this is a wiki, and as such, canon comes first. And as a staff member I am especially inclined to put my professionalism hat on first when it comes to this kind of thing Link on the main page Because I'm a useless twit I added links to their Trollslum profiles. I'm not quite how this makes me a useless twit, but clearly if there's some reason that this is a bad thing to do I will find out in due time. Snowskeeper---Till Hell Freezes Over. (talk) 05:27, October 9, 2012 (UTC) :Well the link to Nektan's trollslum was already there, but hidden with most of the page's content, however we didn't have Mierfa's link so I moved that to the external link section and made that section visible. - The Light6 (talk) 06:43, October 9, 2012 (UTC) Sprites Proposing that we remove the sprites, we have a canon pic of them now and everyone who wants to see the sprites can follow the links to the external pages. - 15:36, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :Honestly, I say we just leave the sprites for the sake of simplicity and ease. Also, if the other wiki has issues or something. Also, I suppose this is the best place to bring it up, but the picture used for them on here is mildly incorrect; Nektan's coat is missing the back half of it. On the comic page, it's that purple triangle bit visible between his legs. Just wanted to point out that it looks awkward as it is on this wiki page. User:Durmer Darc 17:44, March 8, 2013 (UTC) ::But the sprites never appeared in homestuck and it's redundant for such a small page to show each character twice. - 07:53, March 9, 2013 (UTC) Blood Colour "Both of their symbol colors fall slightly outside the established 12 colors of the known hemospectrum. The reason for this is unknown, but could be attributable to numerous factors, such as lighting, mutant blood, their symbol colors not matching their actual blood, or even that the 12 colors of the hemospectrum vary in different troll universes or star systems" Wasn't it already established that the 12 trolls blood colours aren't the only blood colours? And that blood colours can vary, those aren't the 12 set colours (well 11, discounting Karkat). ~Takoto 18:43, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :Nope, and said that the only canon blood colors are lime and the twelve possessed by the Sgrub players. There are no other colors besides those. 19:24, March 8, 2013 (UTC) ::Actually, Lime is included. Karkat's blood isn't, as it's a mutant blood color. But yeah, still only 12 colors barring mutations. 21:02, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :::Oops ignore this then, I think somewhere along the line I must have confused fanon with canon. ~Takoto 22:31, March 8, 2013 (UTC) The trivia currently states that Mierfa's blood color is much closer to Equius' however while it is a bright blue and not dark, its hue (position in the rainbow) is between the normal color blue and cyan where cerulean blood is so I think this part should be removed. Also this is her symbol color not her blood color and the "blood color" on trolls outfits has varied in darkness anyways.--Tiribomba (talk) 02:39, March 9, 2013 (UTC) :But Equius' blood color IS bright blue. And despite slight off-colorations in a few panels (mostly just with Gamzee's sprites honestly), the color of their shirt symbols is consistent. And I'm not really sure what you mean by "normal" blue. You havea good point about it being the shirt color and not the blood color, but the fact is that if you compare it to Equius and Vriska's symbols (e.g. blood color), it is doubtlessly closer to Equius'. 02:53, March 9, 2013 (UTC) ::I guess my wording was a little misleading. I was trying to point out that while the symbols on both Equius' and Mierfa's shirts ARE bright (not having shade in HSV color-scale) Equius' is the blue in RGB color-scale while Mierfa's is azure in RGB color-scale (between Equius blue and RGB cyan)(slightly more green). Vriska's symbol is a darker version of Mierfa's color(or really close). When we are talking about the closeness of color of troll blood/symbols hue should matter more than darkness of the color because that is what the colors on the hemospectrum are distanced by. The color change on the outfits I was talking about was things like Feferi's goggles being darker than her symbol or Damara having two different shades of dark red (I did notice that Gamzee almost has Eridan's symbol color in some panels though). This could justify things like Mierfa having a lighter symbol color than her blood.--Tiribomba (talk) 05:02, March 9, 2013 (UTC) This is stupid I mean really. I dont want to start an edit war but "showed up in appeared on" is just wrong. --Hemerythrin (talk) 15:53, 25 March 2015‎ (UTC) :You're taking the solitary phrase out of context. If you don't like the phrasing, go ahead and change it, but it's grammatically correct whereas your edit is not. Does "the panel these trolls appeared on the updated Homestuck Adventure Map" make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me. The trolls didn't "appear the panel on the map", so some change in wording is needed. Within context, the old version of the sentence makes sense. The panel appeared on the Adventure Map, and it was a panel the trolls showed up in. Does that make sense now? If you favor another wording, fine, but try reading the sentence back to yourself. 16:01, March 25, 2015 (UTC) ::FML. Looks like i was wrong after all. Someone should really change that Sentence entirely because two verbs in a row just sort of sound wrong. Seeing that i am not the first person wrong about the sentence. Hemerythrin 11:45, March 29, 2015 (UTC)